1997 Mormon memo on banning same-sex marriage receives wide exposure
by: Pam Spaulding
Last week it was revealed that the LDS church has been thinking about efforts to ban same-sex marriage in California for more than a decade, and was well aware of the church’s PR problem if it were to lead the charge on a referendum.
What the late LDS leader Gordon Hinckley knew at the time was that he needed to hook up a church with a better rep (ha!) to front for it – the Catholic church. Here is a report on the strategy memo:
In the above report, the church doesn’t question the memo’s validity, in fact, the sources said there are other related documents that could surface. One snippet of the LDS memo underscores the level of hate the church has for gays (HLM refers to “homosexual legal marriage”):
I think I support prop 8, although I live in Chicago. There fore it sounds to me like you think I am judging gay people. And that I hate them. You do not know me, and you are judging me, by saying that I hate them. I would never judge someone I never met. I would never even judge someone I lived with. We can not make permanent judgments, because we never know how things will end up. We never know the decisions we would have made if we had lived in someone else’s shoes. We should never make permanent judgments about if someone is a “good” person, or a “bad” person. But we have to make decisions that we think will lead to a better decisions. I support all gay rights. Gays couples should be treated the same as other couples. But I don’t think we should redefine what a marriage is, and I think we should allow the states to use the democratic process to decide what type of societies they want to live in. We have to respect the rights of the minority… democracy has to be limited to respect the rights of the minority, but I think this is the case where states can decide that they want to promote the rights of children to have more access to a mother and a father…
I want to call you names…. I want to get angry at you for over simplifying the issue, and accusing those who disagree with you of hating…
You can discount my argument. You can say that you think gay couples make better parents, or can make just as good parents… You can discount my arguments, and say I am wrong… You can say I am stupid… but how dare you say that I hate…
Check Your Self
For all you people out there protesting against the passage of Proposition 8, you need to grow up and stop being a bunch of whiners. YOU LOST!!!! Get over it!!!! There’s nothing wrong with availing yourself of the democratic process, but you did and YOU LOST!!!
All you people out there protesting must have nothing better to do with your time. How can you justify asking the Supreme Court to legislate from the bench and overturn a vote from the people. It’s constitutional if the people vote on it and say it is.
And for those of you out there who think it’s ok to go ahead and push little old ladies around and spit on them and hit them. Try picking on someone your own size. I’m not saying I’m going to go out there and kick everybody’s ass, because that’s not going to happen. I am saying that you better hope I’m not around when that happens, because I WILL push back.
You guys don’t have the right to harrass and intimidate people. Who the hell do you think you are?! You’re vote has been defeated twice, so get over it already. Deal with it, or move somewhere else. Quit being a bunch of whiny ass people.
Just because our elected leaders don’t have the backbone to come to the rescue of the people who are being beaten and intimidated, doesn’t mean you have free reign to do whatever the hell you want.
And whoever sent the envelopes of white powder to the Mormon Church needs to grow the hell up.
The majority rules in this country. If you don’t like that, move to Russia. The appellate lawyer on the State Supreme Court Panel that said the courts obligation is “to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority” is a moron too. Sorry, but that’ no how it works here.
The next time you guys want to go pushing around little old ladies, give me a call first and you can try someone your own size.
Ditto, Doug.
You website is Californians Against Hate, but all I have seen in hate from your group. Prop 8 was passed under a legal and fare election, but the reaction that comes from this election is nothing short of emotional hatred, rage and hypocrisy. Targeting people for supporting a cause they believe in is the same as a KKK member beating a homosexual or person of color. America is a Democracy for a reason. Your side lost, so why don’t you allow the legal system handle it. Your hypocrisy only hinders your cause.
To “myclob”:
It matters not if you, yourself, hate or are violent, there are enough people who do hate and are violent who will be encouraged and furthered by your words and actions; you “myclob”, and all those like you, are accomplices to hate and violence!
If you actually do not ‘hate’ yourself, you cause and further the acceptance, tolerance and justification for ‘hate’ in others, against gays and lesbians!
Same-sex marriage bans and discrimination limits the rights and access of children to stable, lasting, loving, nurturing parents. Same-sex marriages have always existed throughout time on this Earth.
Read my posts below if you still think yourself truly so innocent and just!
WWJD? Read the RED LETTERS !!!
To “b”:
Supporting laws that continued the unequal rights of blacks directly promoted hate, violence and murders by KKK members against blacks; the same as, SUPPORTHING Proposition 8 DIRECTLY PROMOTES HATE, VIOLENCE AND MURDERS AGAINST GAYS and LESBIANS. Your support for “8” will directly or indirectly result in violence and murder against gays and lesbians; your attitudes and statements of past have already, at the very least, indirectly caused violence and murder!
You may be right about the “emotional hatred, rage and hypocrisy”, as I would guess blacks and woman and Mormons and other groups have felt when their basic human rights were unjustly denied, …oh yea, and don’t forget the American Revolution, Boston Tea Party come to mind, by chance?
‘Jim Crow’ laws, and other slavery and anti-black or anti-woman, anti-Japanese or anti-Mormon laws, have also been passed under fair elections, and were all evil and NOT ON THE SIDE OF GOD !
WWJD? Read the RED LETTERS !!!
To “terry from baltimore”(in response to your other posting):
People like “terry from baltimore” who make statements like “same sex so-called marriage have no desire to harm homosexuals” are either naive, idiots or simply closed minded hurtful, FALSE WITNESS BEARING, bigots!
First, even calling the infrequent but historic practice of same-sex marriages “so-called” demonstrates at the very least blatant ignorance, or the simple BEARING of FALSE WHITNESS. Same-sex marriage is a historic fact! It has been around since before Jesus, although I’ll expect not practiced by your church.
Second, calling same-sex marriages “so-called” and calling homosexuality as “dysfunctional” or a “perversion”, is only hateful, hurtful and harmful! Making such ignorant and plainly naive claims about homosexuals or “most people” directly, or indirectly, causes and leads to others (those who like harming people) to harm homosexuals with bulling, mistreatment, violence and murder. Name calling as “terry from baltimore” and so may others have stated, promotes such mistreatments, violence and murder!; you are an accomplish to these ongoing and future violent acts, by your statements! Smokers do not regularly get beaten or killed for simply being smokers, gays and lesbians do!
Name calling and making laws that create unequal rights for gays and lesbians, furthers and continues the SECOND CALSS STATUS of gays and lesbians, like Mormons have experienced, at least in their past fights for their equal rights! Name calling and otherwise promoting dysfunctional and perverse SECOND CLASS STATUS of gays and lesbians directly, and indirectly, causes violence and murders against gays and lesbians! …the exact same way it did against Mormons when their rights were being more harshly discriminated against in America.
BEING a HOMOSEXUAL IS LIKE BEING a MORMON! Many people have hated and mistreated Mormons simply because how they chose to live and act, who they married and who’s teachings they followed. These Mormons all were hated, mistreated and killed ONLY BECAUSE HOW THEY CHOOSE TO LIVE; or maybe Mormons are born that way, who knows and who can tell about them or homosexuals.
Being a Mormon, to most people, is without question as, or more, dysfunctional and perverse than the natural act of true love between two people. Forced married and forced sex with little girls, that’s what all Mormons do, right?; …Right, just as often as homosexuals act dysfunctional and perverse. Same-sex animals in nature naturally have homosexual interactions, as do heterosexual people (ever felt good, at all, giving another guy a hug or handshake or pat on the back); heterosexuals also do all the varied (?perverse) types of sexual intercourse that homosexuals do; and, heterosexuals do sex, much more often and much more “perversely” (rape, incest, pedophiles, bondage, etc.) than homosexuals, …check the facts and statistics, then begin to bear true witness!
Truly, from an evolutionary point of view, homosexuality is exactly what this world of ours needs right now! If you haven’t been paying attention there are too many people overrunning the resources of our blessed Earth; and, where is the reverence or Godliness in that? Back when Christians were taught about ‘not lying with a man’, more than half the babies born died in the first year, if not in the first month. Propagation, propagation, propagation was just what our species needed then, and the open space and resources on the planet were abundant; not any more! And don’t worry so much, there will always still be some people who choose to be heterosexual, so we wont go extinct; or, again is it a choice, or are homosexuals and heterosexuals born that way, …the exact way God intended! Also, what dose God have happen, when a woman ‘propagates, propagates, propagates’?; …She gets more homosexuals!; Sounds like God intended it, or are you an unbeliever? Finally, about “terry’s” comments about evolution, what ever happened to creation!
WWJD? READ the RED LETTERS !!!
To “dougedoug”:
You stand ugly and proud of your blatant hate and discrimination!
Anti-same-sex marriage promotion encourages and accompanies violence against gays and lesbians, the same as laws that promoted the unequal rights of blacks promoted the whippings, beatings and lynching of blacks, …the same as laws that promoted the unequal rights of Jews in Nazi Germany, promoted their mistreatment and killing, …the same as laws that promoted the unequal rights of Mormons to marry as they chose, promoted their mistreatment and killing! WWJD!
I love all, including the Mormons and all other religions; I hate no one! I do speak and act against hate and the promotion of, and accomplices to violence against any specific, scapegoated groups of individual people, such as against gays, lesbians or Mormons!
But be real! If you have given money, spoken up or acted in any way to promote the passage of California’s recent Proposition 8, then you, yourself have acted as a direct or indirect accomplice to future acts of ugly mistreatment and vicious violence and murders against gays and lesbians! If you have also now spoken up or acted in general, in any way against the, in reality, very few idiots who have acted themselves with vandalism in retaliation to those who promote the future mistreatment or violence against gays and lesbians, then you, yourself have promoted, and are yourself a accomplice to acts of sick violence, murder and other ill-moral mistreatments.
Your beliefs may guide you, sure; the same as the Nazi’s beliefs guided them, KKK members guided them, and Osama’s beliefs guided him and his believers right into the Twin Towers. Oh, and yes, now these peoples did exercise their Free Speech, now didn’t they; I guess that is a good enough excuse for them and those who promoted Proposition 8. Hiding behind beliefs that are hateful of a scapegoated general group of others, is wrong and ill-moral! WWJD!
WWJD People! What Would Jesus Do? Certainly he would not be an outspoken accomplice to hate and violence against those of other flocks.
Also, to compare the insignificant and civil disobedient vandalism acts against Mormon buildings, to those acts of mistreatment, violence and murder that have and will continue against gay and lesbian persons, is simply sick. Were talking buildings and structures, or insignificant jostling, in comparison to acts of harsh and significant violence or murder against American citizens, simply because they or their partner was born a man or a woman, and not the other. To speak or act against same-sex marriage is to be an accomplice to future acts of ugly violence and murder; it is hateful, sick and it is ill-moral! WWJD!
Those idiots who have acted with vandalism and such, must also be compared to others who have acted as such, and worse, in retaliation to their groups mistreatments, such as …let me think…, …maybe Americans during the Boston Tea Party, …or Blacks and Women during the Civil Rights Movements, …or even Mormons who took the law into their own hands to protect their families and their choice of Religion, marriage and life! WWJD!
My love and prays go to you!
WWJD! Read the RED LETTERS!
Mormons, the Mormon Church and other hateful NON-RED-LETTER Christians, now in this day and age, like to choose gays and lesbians to hate and scapegoat; …and they seem to feel this evil, hurtful, hateful, non-loving expression of theirs’ are somehow moral.
These confused, evil, ill-moral, hating Mormons and other Christians forgot and abandoned the most sacred and blessed teachings of the Bible, while believing and expressing and acting for such evil hate!
The Bible dose speak against a man lying with a man the same as a woman, but dose not speak against or ask for a ban on same-sex marriage, …it only speaks for marriage. Same-sex marriage has been a part of life on this planet since time was first recorded; if your church dose not want to sanction it for itself, fine; but, it is a lie (FALSE WITNESS) to claim same-sex marriages are something new that redefines marriage; and, it is a lie to claim that banning loving, committed same-sex persons from marrying, will somehow ‘redefine’ and ‘save marriage’, …when only a ban would redefine it, and only LOVE can SAVE marriages, and us all!
The Bible dose also speak against other things, and these should always be considered by a TRUE Christian, when considering their hate and witnessing against gays and lesbians; here are two: First, a wife must do as her husband says or orders; so, being gay or lesbian is then considered a sin or bad, like it would be bad for a wife to report or act against her husband raping their preschool children after the husband ordered his wife not to. Second, shell fish must not be eaten, and the flesh of a dead pig must not be touched; so being gay or lesbian is then considered a sin or bad, like it would be bad for a dad to throw a football (pigskin) with his son; or, like a Christian church serving a homeless person a bowl of clam chowder soup; or, like a grandmother serving her grandchildren beacon and eggs for breakfast, or a ham sandwich or and American hot dog! Being gay or lesbian then, would be considered bad like reporting and stopping child abuse, like feeding the hungry or like a dad spending quality time with his child, …sounds likes its not really bad at all!
The Bible speaks of: ‘those of other flocks’, ‘turning the other cheek’ and ‘love’, if this is not what you and your children are learning from your church or religion, then your simply listening to the wrong and evil side! I pray for your guidance and wish you love!
The haters like to say that they don’t want the government or judges changing the definition of marriage; but, then they spend thousands and thousands of dollars to do just that! The law suit and actions against the Mormons and others are right and just; if they want to speak freely with their actions and money, they must accept that others may do the same.
Marriage is about bringing loving, committed couples together, it is not about discriminating against couples simply because one is or is not a man or a woman.
‘Same-sex marriage discrimination’ is ‘sex discrimination’; if all that is needed is for one of the persons to be another sex, that’s ‘sex discrimination’, children! Although, I’ll guess that calling it ‘gay or lesbian or homosexual’, gives ugly, evil, NON-RED-LETTER Christians a warm and cozy, false feeling or morality inside, doesn’t it, …kind of like a witch burning or a stoning or lynching, eigh!
WWJD? READ the RED LETTERS !!!
How I yearn for the good old days, when “same sex marriage” meant a couple with a uninteresting love life!
Truth for peace, you haven’t refuted any assertion I made. You just called me a hateful bigot, which I might very well be. However, that wouldn’t invalidate any of my statements.
You say that same-sex “marriage” (the quotes mean “so called”) has a history. Give us details, please. Where, when, and what societies allowed two men or two women to marry each other? While it’s true that homosexuality and lesbianism were part of many societies, ancient and modern, I don’t believe there was ever an institution that permitted same-sex “marriages.”
You wrote: “Marriage is about bringing loving, committed couples together, it is not about discriminating against couples simply because one is or is not a man or a woman.”
Let’s extend your argument. “Marriage is about bringing loving, committed couples together, it is not about discriminating against couples simply because one is or is not a man or a woman or a horse or a dog.”
Same logic as same sex “marriage.”
The big problem about same-sex “marriage” is what kind of children are produced by these unions?
Truth For Peace, are you out of your mind? Terry From Baltimore is right. Show us ANY society in history that has approved of gay marriage? Homosexuality may be an old thing (Alexander The Great was a notorious homosexual), but gay marriage has not.
And the FEW idiots you referred to and the “insignificant acts of civil disobedience towards buildings” is simply not factual.
When something is happening that is big enough to get daily coverage in print and TV news, it’s not insignificant.
And it’s not civil disobedience, when private property is being vandalized, when 69 year old women are being pushed around, spat on and hit.
And it’s not insignificant or civil disobedience when people are mailing envelopes of white powder to the Mormon Church. Whether or not it was really anthrax, doesn’t matter.
THAT is hate. Now I do recognize that there have been plenty (and that is an understatement) of instances of hate crimes agains homosexuals. But two wrongs don’t make a right man. You CANNOT fight fire with fire, because you’re only going to burn everything down. And people who think that you have to burn everything down to start fresh and proper are summed up in one word – ANARCHISTS.
To “terry from baltamore”:
It appears that your position is that gay people are ‘dogs’ or ‘horses’; you show your naive, hateful blatant ignorance; …no use arguing with a bigot or true ignorance.
I never claimed that large societies ever promoted same-sex marriage, but they have existed throughout our world. You present no facts that they have not existed or that only heterosexual marriage is traditional; is your position that you know what has gone on in all of history, you have some record or documentation of every marriage and that it was heterosexual only, …I think not! All you have is you prejudice and your views that, effectively equate to hate!
Lets look at your last point, I think it was that heterosexual couples only produce good and proper children; I guess by your statement, maybe you think same-sex couples produced all the murders, rapist and child molesters and other problem children in the world, ..now that would be a fine trick. I guess the conclusion is that heterosexuals have really screwed the world up, maybe it is time to GIVE LOVE A CHANCE in the world!
Terry, your assertions and statements invalidate themselves, with non-bigoted true witness bearing. My statements and assertions stand true and completely factual!
I pray for, and send my love to, you!
To “dougedoug” & “terry from baltamore”:
See my response to terry above.
I will not waist my time trying to come with a lot of factual details that would not change the mind on a predigest fanatic anyway; but, I can not think of the exact society, but I think it was Mediterranean. In this society, if a wife’s husband died, the wife would take over the male, head of household roll, in the family completely! She would take over all the business dealings that her husband had; she would even dress and groom like a man; and , SHE would, at times, REMARRY A WOMAN, taking the woman as HER WIFE, and all would be done an accepted part of the society she lived in.
Now, that is a clear example of HISTORICAL SAME-SEX MARRIAGE, please, in the name of God and Jesus and all that is holy, please now, stop bearing false witness!
And, the daily press coverage you talk of, was that the one video that was repeated over and over of that poor, hate accompanying and promoting, old woman who was insignificantly jostled, that you refer to as being significant; …wake up and look at the effects of your positions and statements on those who simply want to be ALLOW TO LOVE and LIVE FREELY; what kind of hatemongering world do you live in!
What is insignificant, is the number of very few IDIOTS who are actually doing such defensive tactics against the Mormon Church; it is the hate that the Mormon’s put out that is simply being returned to them in kind; …yes and I fully and completely condone such hate from either side, but understand the Mormons started the spreading of hate that has now returned home so deplorable.
And, TO ANY PRO-SAME-SEX MARRIAGE IDOTS WHO ARE DOING ACTS OF VANDELISM: I understand the justice of your frustrations and even hate for these hateful Mormons; but, please control yourself and stop such acts of retaliatory anger; as, such acts only make all gays, lesbian, and other fair and good minded-people on the pro-same-sex marriage side, look like we deserve to not be allowed to marry or have other rights. Think of Martin Luther King (Malcolm-X) and his principles of love and non-violence, while now fighting for all our Civil Rights!
And Doug, one last point, it is the Mormons who are the ones who lit the flames, and it is you and other fanatics on your side who I read talking of ANARCHY and VIOLENCE; the pro-same-sex marriage people simply want the rights to love and create a family, as you enjoy and are able to.
To “dougedoug” & “terry from baltamore”:
One typo in my last post: I DO NOT "condone" such hate from either side, …I CONDEMN IT!!!
Peace and Love and Joy to You and Us and All !!!