LOS ANGELES, CA – Fred Karger, Founder of Californians Against Hate, today filed a Sworn Complaint with the Enforcement Division of the Fair Political Practices Commission (FPPC). In the complaint he accused The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) of not reporting numerous non monetary contributions to ProtectMarriage.com – Yes on 8, A Project of California Renewal I.D. # 1302592.
Karger contends that The Mormon Church organized phone banks from Utah and Idaho, sent direct mail to voters, transported people to California over several weekends, used the LDS NewsRoom to send out News Releases to promote their activities, walked precincts, ran a speakers bureau, distributed thousands of lawn signs and other campaign material, organized a “surge to election day,” had Church leaders travel to California, set up very elaborate web sites, produced at least 9 commercials and 4 other video broadcasts and conducted at least 2 satellite simulcasts over 5 Western states. All of these actions were geared toward nonmembers.
In addition to the formal FPPC complaint, a letter was also sent today to FPPC Chairman Ross Johnson, California Attorney General Edmund G. Brown, Jr. and Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff expanding on the complaint.
In the letter, a copy of which is below, Karger stated that 2 other organizations that were also involved in the Yes on Prop 8 campaign, reported substantial non monetary contributions to ProtectMarriage.com. The National Organization for Marriage (NOM) of Princeton, New Jersey reported $210,634,75 and James Dobson’s Focus on the Family of Colorado Springs, Colorado reported $83,790.00. No non monetary contributions could be found from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Here is the full text of the letter:
November 13, 2008
Chairman Ross Johnson
Fair Political Practices Commission
428 J Street, Suite 800
Sacramento, CA 95814
Attorney General Edmund G. Brown, Jr.
California Department of Justice
P.O. Box 944255
Sacramento, CA 94244-2550
Attorney General Mark Shurtleff
Office of the Attorney General
Utah State Capitol Complex
350 North State Street Suite 230
Salt Lake City, UT 84114-2320
Dear Chairman Johnson, Generals Brown & Shurtleff:
Today we filed a formal complaint with the California Fair Political Practices Commission (FPPC) against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) aka the Mormon Church of Salt Lake City, Utah for not reporting various non monetary contributions to ProtectMarriage.com – Yes on 8, A Project of California Renewal I.D. # 1302592. The Mormon Church has been highly secretive about its massive involvement in the campaign, but we managed to piece together evidence of some of their more visible activities done directly to communicate with California voters, including:
· Church organized phone banks from Utah and Idaho
· Sending direct mail to voters
· Transported people to California over several weekends
· Used the LDS Press Office to send out multiple News Releases to promote their activities to nonmembers
· Walked precincts
· Ran a speakers bureau
· Distributed thousands of lawn signs and other campaign material
· Organized a “surge to election day”
· Church leaders travel to California
· Set up of very elaborate web sites
· Produced at least 9 commercials and 4 other video broadcasts all in support of Prop 8
· Conducted at least 2 satellite simulcasts over 5 Western states.
All of these unreported contributions by the Mormon Church were on top of its massive fund-raising effort; the largest ever undertaken on a social issue ballot initiative.
Under California Election Law organizations such as the Mormon Church are not required to report activities if they strictly constitute “member communication.” We will explain why we feel that the activities of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints went far beyond “member communication,” and were instead specifically targeted at California’s 17 million voters. By not reporting any of these non monetary contributions, the Mormon Church violated the Political Reform Act.
The only mention of compliance was a news story stating that the Mormon Church reported a single non monetary contribution of $2078.00 for Church Elder L. Whitney Clayton’s travel expenses for one trip to California. Was there only one trip? Were no other Church officials traveling to California for such an important campaign?
The Mormon Church made the Yes on Prop 8 campaign a national priority beginning on June 20,, 2008 when Church President Thomas S. Monson sent his now famous letter to be read in every church building, where he said, “We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment (Prop 8) by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman.” http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/california-and-same-sex-marriage This was their call to action, and was undoubtedly designed to get members to begin the outreach to nonmembers.
Two other organizations that were also involved in the Yes on Prop 8 campaign, reported substantial non monetary contributions. The National Organization for Marriage of Princeton, New Jersey reported 49 separate non monetary contributions between 02/01/08 and 4/16/08 totaling $210,634,75. James Dobson’s Focus on the Family of Colorado Springs, Colorado reported non monetary contributions between 12/7/07 and 10/15/08 of $83,790.00.
Phone Banks
On October 8, 2008 the Associated Press reported that “Mormons Recruit Out-of-State for Gay Marriage Ban. Mormons living outside California have been asked to volunteer for a telephone campaign to help pass a ballot initiative banning same-sex marriage in the state.”
The Mormon Church announced one week before the November 4, 2008 election that it was canceling its phone centers in Utah established to call California voters. Were these in operation before they were canceled? What were the costs of these phone centers? How many calls were made to California voters from these massive call centers?
News reports said that students at BYU – Idaho in Rexburg, Idaho were using a call center in that town every Thursday evening to call voters in California. This type of interstate phone network requires a lot of setup, supervision, voter sheets, scripts, training and the price of the calls. Call centers are used to communicate with
nonmembers. Phone centers in place to contact nonmembers would constitute a contribution. No contribution was reported.
Gary Lawrence – State LDS Grassroots Director
Veteran political operative Gary Lawrence http://www.zoominfo.com/Search/CompanyDetail.aspx?CompanyID=55969576&cs=QHDVgcoxQ was based in Orange County, California. His title was State LDS Grassroots Director. Lawrence’s mission was to direct all Mormon activities in California (attached). He had a web site set up expressly for this purpose: http://yesonprop8.blogspot.com/2008/08/gary-lawrence-grass-roots-coordinator.html
Gary Lawrence’s operation had a timeline beginning on August 16, 2008 though election day of 12 Saturday precinct walks. All walkers were to be Mormons leading up to the election day surge of 100,000 Mormon volunteers and they went door-to-door to canvass nonmember voters. Was the Church actively involved in this massive recruitment? Here is a copy of the Mormon Organizational memo: http://wikileaks.org/leak/lds-proposition8-notes-2008.pdf This directive from Church Elders Ballard, Christopheron & Clayton detail Church plans for yard signs, schedule, volunteers, out of state calling teams, speakers bureau and voter registration. More internet communications are available on this site: http://www.p8california.com/Job.html Did the Church participate financially in this massive voter outreach? If so, all of these voter communication activities to nonmembers constitute a contribution. No contribution was reported.
Saturday Rallies
These took place throughout California on the 3 Saturdays prior to the election. Thousands of yellow T-shirt clad Yes on 8 supporters were lined up for miles with signs in targeted areas of the state yelling, chanting and screaming at passing motorists. There were reports that these demonstrators were mostly Mormons, and that many were bussed in from Utah and surrounding states. We have heard that some of the busses had out of state license plates. Who paid for the buses, travel costs, meals and other expenses of all the Mormon participants? No contributions were reported.
Satellite Broadcasts
It appears that the first satellite simulcast was on October 8, 2008 and was beamed to 5 Western states. Apostle Robert D. Hales led this broadcast on various aspects of the campaign, including how to deal with the issues and how to conduct yourself. http://www.meridianmagazine.com/churchupdate/081010prop8.html
Another satellite broadcast took place at a later date, and was led by Church Elders M. Russell Ballard, Quentin L. Cook and L. Whitney Clayton. It addressed the Church’s doctrine of marriage and participation in the Protect Marriage Coalition. Then the Newsroom of the Mormon Church issued a Press Release (attached) about this broadcast making it available to California voters and anyone with internet access. This video was not password protected and was promoted by the Church and available to nonmembers. Here is the press release about it as well as other Mormon activities: http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/same-sex-marriage-and-proposition-8 Satellite broadcasts to hundreds of locations are very expensive, and by making it available to nonmembers, it is a contribution. No contribution was reported.
Multi-media Program
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints appeared to have done a tremendous amount of work in this area. A very slick web site (attached) http://www.preservingmarriage.org/ was developed specifically for the Yes on Prop 8 campaign. The title is “Preserving the Divine Institution of Marriage.” This web site states that it is “An Official Web site of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” c 2008 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved.
PreservingMarriage.com is primarily a showcase for 9 separate Yes on Prop 8 commercials that are very professionally produced. They feature mostly young people talking about why same-sex marriage is wrong. There is an email update request box, and another to send feedback. The viewer is encouraged to share this site and “spread the word.” Site visits are not limited to just Mormons, and everyone is “invited to share these videos with others.” There is even a very prominent “Vote Yes on Prop 8, Support Traditional Marriage” banner on the home page. Certainly this web site was put in place to reach California voters. It is on the internet, and therefore available to all.
This web page on PreservingMarriage.com has 13 very professionally made commercials and videos: http://www.preservingmarriage.org/videos.html (attached).
All of these commercials as well as their web site were clearly designed to communicate with the public. No contribution was reported.
Church Denial
On November 9, 2008 Don Eaton a spokesman for the Mormon Church was quoted on ABC – KGO Television stating, “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints put zero money in this (election).” When I personally spoke with him Monday, November 10, 2008 and asked him if the PreservingMarriage.com web site was sponsored by the Church, he quickly said that it was not, but was “a part of the campaign.”
In 1998, the Mormon Church directly contributed $1.1 million to ban same-sex marriages in Alaska and Hawaii, and received widespread criticism for that. So this year in California it appears that the Mormon Church was trying to avoid any direct contributions to Yes on Prop 8, and instead raised millions from its member families. That is legal, but all the money spent to communicate with nonmembers must be reported if it exceed $100. Clearly the Mormon Church has vastly exceeded that threshold. We ask that the Fair Political Practices Commission and the Attorneys General of California and Utah immediately begin a full and thorough investigation of all campaign related activities undertaken by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah to determine if there were any reporting violations.
Thank you very much for your prompt attention to this very important matter.
Sincerely,
Fred Karger
Founder / Campaign Manager
Californians Against Hate
http://californiansagainsthate.com/619-592-2008
cc: Commissioner Timothy A. Hodson
Commissioner A. Eugene Huguenin, Jr.
Commissioner Robert Leidigh
Commissioners Ray Remy
Attachments
The suit filed against the Morman church is going to be a long and hard battle. Church and state are always conflicting entities. Although there appears to be a strong case against the church, we have yet to hear the other side. I would suggest an attorney who has dedicated much of their practice to these types of cases, in that they know how to work their way around the delicate complexities of the law in these matters. http://www.losangeles-employmentlawyer.com represents Perry Smith, an attorney who would be an excellent candidate.
Thank you.
Wow-sounds like your drawing at straws there. Perhaps people voted they way they felt. Latter-Day Saints have always sided with the scriptures in believing that homosexual behaviors are wrong. To force beliefs on us, I believe is wrong and intolerant. I hope this is dismissed as the silliness it is and that we continue to have freedom of speech and religion in this country.
Fred:
The prophet’s name is “Thomas” S. Monson, not “David”. what other facts have you gotten wrong? How about most… 70% of the yes vote was African American, and Hispanic, Not Mormon. The LDS church is not the only church against this, Yet we seem to be under attack for the other 45% of “yes” voters against it. We have at least been respectful, we just don’t want our churche’s doctrine crushed because a minority has a different view. Name cases where Mormons were vandalizing sacred ground of another church, name a time they took respected representatives of Christ and turned them into fiction characters through poorly made videos. you have twisted the facts enough, and at least for a while the greater good wins… again. Californian’s spoke this time, not the supreme court judges, and not the LDS church, but the citizens of California. Your attempt to complain will once again be for not and will be dismissed. Your running out of truths to stretch Fred.
Sounds like you promote exactly what you say your are against. You promote Hate, religous discrimination, discrimination based on race, and all other kinds of ill will. I don’t see your letters against all the other churches in California who were in support of 8. In fact, where are your letters for the non profits who were against 8. Namely the California Teachers Association, Los Angeles Unified School District, and churches who preached against 8 and supported it with member donations. Wouldn’t the minister salary beconsidered a contribution when he preached, in his occupation, against prop 8? I don’t think that you are for fairness but for your agenda no matter who you run over or how much hate you promote. You are just like the KKK, a losing group with a bad cause.
Mormons, the Mormon Church and other hateful NON-RED-LETTER Christians, now in this day and age, like to choose gays and lesbians to hate and scapegoat; …and they seem to feel this evil, hurtful, hateful, non-loving expression of theirs’ are somehow moral.
These confused, evil, ill-moral, hating Mormons and other Christians forgot and abandoned the most sacred and blessed teachings of the Bible, while believing and expressing and acting for such evil hate!
The Bible dose speak against a man lying with a man the same as a woman (an impossible thing physically-sexually, anyway), but dose not speak against or ask for a ban on same-sex marriage, …it only speaks for marriage. Same-sex marriage has been a part of life on this planet since time was first recorded; if your church dose not want to sanction it for itself, fine; but, it is a lie (false witness) to claim same-sex marriages are something new that redefines marriage; and, it is a lie to claim that banning loving, committed same-sex persons from marrying, will somehow ‘redefine’ and ‘save marriage’, …when only a ban would redefine it and only LOVE can SAVE marriages, and us all!
The Bible dose also speak against other things, and these should always be considered by a TRUE Christian, when considering their hate and witnessing against gays and lesbians; here are two: First, a wife must do as her husband says or orders; so, being gay or lesbian is then considered a sin or bad, like it would be bad for a wife to report or act against her husband raping their preschool children after the husband ordered his wife not to. Second, shell fish must not be eaten, and the flesh of a dead pig must not be touched; so being gay or lesbian is then considered a sin or bad, like it would be bad for a dad to throw a football (pigskin) with his son; or, like a Christian church serving a homeless person a bowl of clam chowder soup; or, like a grandmother serving her grandchildren beacon and eggs for breakfast, or a ham sandwich or and American hot dog! Being gay or lesbian then, would be considered bad like reporting and stopping child abuse, like feeding the hungry or like a dad spending quality time with his child, …sounds likes its not really bad at all!
The Bible speaks of: ‘those of other flocks’, ‘turning the other cheek’ and ‘love’, if this is not what you and your children are learning from your church or religion, then your simply listening to the wrong and evil side! I pray for your guidance and wish you love!
The haters like to say that they don’t want the government or judges changing that definition of marriage; but, then they spend thousands and thousands of dollars to do just that! The law suit against the Mormons and such is right and just; if they want to speak freely with their actions and money, they must accept that others may do the same.
Marriage is about bringing loving, committed couples together, it is not about discriminating against couples simply because one is or is not a man or a woman.
‘Same-sex marriage discrimination’ is ‘sex discrimination’; if all that is needed is for one of the persons to be another sex, that’s ‘sex discrimination’, children! Although, I’ll guess that calling it ‘gay or lesbian or homosexual’, gives ugly, evil, NON-RED-LETTER Christians a warm and cozy, false feeling or morality inside, doesn’t it, …kind of like a witch burning or a stoning, eigh!
Why do you hate mormons californians against hate. It seems to me that your name is intolerant of mormon faith. If you want tolerance don’t pretend that that means acceptance. Freedom of speech won out. It isn’t racist or sexist to not accept gay marriage. Gay marriage is a choice. Gays loving each other as a choice is debatable but gay marriage is a choice. It is a choice that will hurt children. If you allow gays to marry then they will have rights to adopt children. The Christian adoption agencies run by the LDS church and other church such as the Catholic churches will not adopt out children to gay couples as they see it as doctrinally wrong. They will then be sued. Therefore these children will be left as wards of the state, heaven help that gays will adopt them all and give them good homes because they won’t. So am I to side with adults who have decided to put themselves into a marriage situation or with kids who are in their situations because of poor choices already made by adults. The choice for me is easy. These organizations protect kids. Gays need to chill out, not try to reinvent marriage and come to the realization that mormons know a great deal about not getting there way with marriage. When they wanted plural marriage the US government went as far as to jail polygamists. Why they were grown ups making their own decisions. Now tell me how many gays have been thrown into prison for being gay married? Maybe the gays should ask the mormons why they stopped plural marriage, got real and kept marriage as it HAS ALWAYS BEEN. Even in the nether regions of the world where peoples traditions and cultures haven’t changed since the stone age there is marriage between a man and woman. So I guess gay marriage is pretty intolerant of the rest of the world and our rights. Quit hating Californians against hate and start loving.
Hypocrites! Californians AGAINST Hate!?? While the Gay/Lesbian community perform hate crimes against our places of worship for us exercising our freedom to vote? When did terrorist-type actions become less “hate” than your voting freedom?
And thus we see how quickly relativism attempts to become totalitariansim.
The concept of “Gay Marriage” is an oxymoron in every sense. Not only does it violate biblical law (for those who profess a biblical traditional judeo-christian philosophy) it violates natural law. A species that cannot perpetuate its genetic code cannot survive without taking what it needs to survive. In the case of homosexuals the only way they can perpetuate their “species” (if they are indeed “born that way” as many so vehemently claim) is to take the progeny of others, hence the rabid desire for homosexual couples to adopt.
For decades homosexuals have been of the published mindset that
“if it’s okay for us (homosexuals) and doesn’t hurt you (heterosexuals) then why bother regulating?”
Relativism at it’s most basic form.
Now we see what happens when relativism doesn’t get its way:
Terrorism.
The newest reports indicate white powder being mailed to LDS temples and a Catholic press building, hate crimes involving vandalism to LDS meeting houses, and other acts of overt hate.
Now we see your true colors as evidenced by this website and homosexuals’ actions.
The LDS people have always been direct and honest in their support of traditional marriage. The terrorist actions taken by the gay, lesbian, trans-gender community show the world that they have not been honest about their feelings.
Relativism has turned to totalitariansim and terrorism as prophesied by both ancient and modern prophets.
Did you really think your actions would go unnoticed? Did you really think that committing terrorism wouldn’t tarnish your public image?
How can anyone support your organization who is supported by terrorists?
You know, I was all about keeping marriage legal, until I saw what the backlash was when it didn’t pass. How can you say you are against hate when you are promoting it. Sure, the Mormon church is different, and conservative, but they are still a religion, and you out everyone should know that they have a right to stand for what they believe in. It’s not what you believe in, but that’s what makes this country beautiful. I will not support your group ever again after hearing how much hate you have promoted. Giving out peoples names who donated is cowardly, and I am ashamed. Be the better person, and stop promoting hate. You out of everyone should know what hate brings. I don’t think the Mormons, or really ANYONE that voted for Prop 8 was doing it out of hate, I think they were doing it out of their beliefs.
Great post Fred. Keep up the good work.
I don’t see how the LDS church can claim that preservingmarriage.com, which states that it is an offical site of the church and is directed to the general public, didn’t have to be cited as a non-monetary contribution to the effort to pass Prop. 8. Even if the labor and resources required to create and maintain the site were donated to the church, the church still claims it as their intellectual property, and thus should have reported its value as a contribution.
I got one of those forwarded e-mails that someone sent to everyone in their address book. It was originally sent by a teacher in the seminary class at BYU-Idaho (a university owned by the LDS church). It was a link to a slickly produced video against gay marriage. It might be one of the same ones cited in the lawsuit. Here it is.
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1815820715?bctid=1822459319
In the original e-mail the seminary teacher was assigning everyone in the class to view the video before their seminary class the following day. I assume they had a class discussion about it. They used church time and church property to forward their cause. The only reason I could think that they want people in Idaho to watch is to make financial contributions. After all, they couldn’t vote on a California proposition.
Why is the LDS Church a tax-exempt church when they are no different than a PAC? If you think the Mormons bully people around in California you should see how bad they are in this part of Idaho where they are the majority. I deal with it every day, even in the workplace. I’m asked to do special favors for people to further their relationships with their brethren in the church.
I saw a list of donors from this area where they were identified as being LDS or not. I know for a fact that many of the people who were not listed as LDS actually are LDS too. Mormons contributed even more than some of you might think. I believe that they have no business getting involved in the political issues of another state. But they’ve been doing it a long time. By expanding their little 2-year college in Rexburg, Idaho to a 4-year university they have effectively become the largest voting bloc in this part of the state. And they don’t always play well with others.
Elizabeth and Matthew I couldnt have said it better. It’s blasphemy. The aweful behavior and terroristic threats the ‘GAYS’ are demonstrating makes me WANT TO HATE! How dare you treat a church and law abiding citizens like this? The people have spoken and it has been written. Your walk on Saturday will do nothing but gain more haters AGAINST YOU AND YOUR CAUSE.
Stand strong our Christian leaders. Hold steadfast in this storm and know that He is God and will reign over this battle. My God has never failed me nor will he fail His people.
Together we will fight to the end and victory will be ours. Pray for our sinners and haters who are trying to destroy the Christian churches, marriage as it is now and faith in our system. Use your voice and come together, protect each other and let them know we are there to support our fellow Christians in California, Florida and other states that are flooded with Gay American Terrorists Everywhere (GATE)!
FIGHT HATE WITH HATE. YOU PEOPLE ARE MORONS!
It seems like “hate” is the mot du jour on this website. If you don’t like it when free citizens exercise their right to vote, just call them “hateful.” Then you can hate them.
By the way, why wasn’t my name on the “Dishonor Roll.” I gave money to support Prop 8, although it was a modest amount compared with some of those listed.
What can I say? I had a bad year.
Terry Walbert
Baltimore, Maryland
Some of these commenters are hilarious. Their message is essentially, “Let me get this straight: We and others like us act like bigots and then you actually dare identify and treat us as such?”
It’s get hard out there to be a bigot.
Anti-same-sex marriage promotion encourages and accompanies violence against gays and lesbians, the same as laws that promoted the unequal rights of blacks promoted the whippings, beatings and lynching of blacks, …the same as laws that promoted the unequal rights of Jews in Nazi Germany, promoted their mistreatment and killing, …the same as laws that promoted the unequal rights of Mormons, promoted their mistreatment and killing! WWJD!
I love all, including the Mormons and all other religions; I hate no one! I do speak and act against hate and the promotion of, and accomplices to violence against any specific, scapegoated groups of individual people, such as against gays, lesbians or Mormons!
But be real! If you have given money, spoken up or acted in any way to promote the passage of California’s recent Proposition 8, then you, yourself have acted as a direct or indirect accomplice to future acts of ugly mistreatment and vicious violence and murders against gays and lesbians! If you have also now spoken up or acted in general, in any way against the, in reality, very few idiots who have acted themselves with vandalism in retaliation to those who promote the future mistreatment or violence against gays and lesbians, then you, yourself have promoted, and are yourself a accomplice to acts of sick violence, murder and other ill-moral mistreatments.
Your beliefs may guide you, sure; the same as the Nazi’s beliefs guided them, KKK members guided them, and Osama’s beliefs guided him and his believers right into the Twin Towers. Oh, and yes, now these peoples did exercise their Free Speech, now didn’t they; I guess that is a good enough excuse for them and those who promoted Proposition 8. Hiding behind beliefs that are hateful of a scapegoated general group of others, is wrong and ill-moral! WWJD!
WWJD People! What Would Jesus Do? Certainly he would not be an outspoken accomplice to hate and violence against those of other flocks.
Also, to compare the insignificant and civil disobedient vandalism acts against Mormon buildings, to those acts of mistreatment, violence and murder that have and will continue against gay and lesbian persons, is simply sick. Were talking buildings and structures, or insignificant jostling, in comparison to acts of harsh and significant violence or murder against American citizens, simply because they or their partner was born a man or a woman, and not the other. To speak or act against same-sex marriage is to be an accomplice to future acts of ugly violence and murder; it is hateful, sick and it is ill-moral! WWJD!
Those idiots who have acted with vandalism and such, must also be compared to others who have acted as such, and worse, in retaliation to their groups mistreatments, such as …let me think…, …maybe Americans during the Boston Tea Party, …or Blacks and Women during the Civil Rights Movements, …or even Mormons who took the law into their own hands to protect their families and choice of Religion and life! WWJD!
As one last point on those Mormons who speak against others violence and claim terrorism; the Mormon history is very well established as being one that committed acts of multiple and mass murders; claiming ‘terrorism’ and the like, is simply an act that promotes future violence, and is clearly an overstatement (bearing false witness), and stated as such simply promotes future acts of violence and ugly, ill-moral mistreatment.
WWJD! Read the RED LETTERS!
Most people who oppose same sex so-called marriage have no desire to harm homosexuals. That’s like arguing that anyone who opposes marriage between a man and a crocodile hates men who want to make love to crocodiles. For most Americans, homosexuality is dysfunctional and a perversion of nature but they don’t want to persecute those so afflicted.
Homosexuality is like smoking. In both cases you are doing something to your body and psyche that violate nature’s design. Although I might disdain smoking, I don’t hate smokers.
From an evolutionary point of view, homosexuality is as dysfunctional as it gets. If you unviversalized it, the human race would be extinct in one generation. Come to think of it, trying to make love to a crocodile also has its evolutionary down side.
To our LDS fellow citizens. Please don’t conflate the basis of the Complaint with the behavior of protestors. The bottom line is that every citizen has a right to his or her own voice, but organizations have to abide by Election Laws. If, in fact, the LDS, exceeded the $100 threshhold and communicated beyonds it membership AND didn’t report it, then there is a problem.
What the LDS just doesn’t get is that the rancor (which they inexplicably seem to find so surprising), is a result of gay people finally saying ‘enough is enough’ to not being equal in the eyes of the law and having everyone else tell us what we deserve -or don’t – as US citizens. We have had to fight in the courts to be able to teach in schools, to secure benefits for a partner, to be able to visit our loved one in the hospital. Now we are being told we that a right secured by a long and painful Court battle is no longer ours. If you can, put yourself in our shoes – a stretch, I know, and then tell me you would not be angry and bitter. It’s hard to be tolerant when someone advocates stripping you of your rights and hides behind religion to do so.
Mr. Ashton, one of your members, was quoted today as saying he found the protestors “offputting” and “by your fruit, ye shall know them.” It goes both ways. We now know you. So, don’t be surprised when you find yourself facing anger and recrimination. You literally bought your own trouble.
Wow this reminds me of communism wanting to know who gives what to who,sounds like you guys are like Hitler.
So many i see are the hateful ones who protest someone for having an opinion,these people should be more open minded and respectful. Stop being so hateful and you’ll get more respect.
People like “terry from baltimore” who make statements like “same sex so-called marriage have no desire to harm homosexuals” are either naive, idiots or simply closed minded hurtful, FALSE WITNESS BEARING, bigots!
First, even calling the infrequent but historic practice of same-sex marriages “so-called” demonstrates at the very least blatant ignorance, or the simple BEARING of FALSE WHITNESS. Same-sex marriage is a historic fact! It has been around since before Jesus, although I’ll expect not practiced by your church.
Second, calling same-sex marriages “so-called” and calling homosexuality as “dysfunctional” or a “perversion”, is only hateful, hurtful and harmful! Making such ignorant and plainly naive claims about homosexuals or “most people” directly, or indirectly, causes and leads to others (those who like harming people) to harm homosexuals with bulling, mistreatment, violence and murder. Name calling as “terry from baltimore” and so may others have stated, promotes such mistreatments, violence and murder!; you are an accomplish to these ongoing and future violent acts, by your statements! Smokers do not regularly get beaten or killed for simply being smokers, gays and lesbians do!
Name calling and making laws that create unequal rights for gays and lesbians, furthers and continues the SECOND CALSS STATUS of gays and lesbians, like Mormons have experienced, at least in their past fights for their equal rights! Name calling and otherwise promoting dysfunctional and perverse SECOND CLASS STATUS of gays and lesbians directly, and indirectly, causes violence and murders against gays and lesbians! …the exact same way it did against Mormons when their rights were being more harshly discriminated against in America.
BEING a HOMOSEXUALITY IS LIKE BEING a MORMON! Many people have hated and mistreated Mormons simply because how they chose to live and act, who they married and who’s teachings they followed. These Mormons all were hated, mistreated and killed ONLY BECAUSE HOW THEY CHOOSE TO LIVE; or maybe Mormons are born that way, who knows and who can tell about them or homosexuals.
Being a Mormon, to most people, is without question as, or more, dysfunctional and perverse than the natural act of true love between two people. Forced married and forced sex with little girls, that’s what all Mormons do, right?; …Right, just as often as homosexuals act dysfunctional and perverse. Same-sex animals in nature naturally have homosexual interactions, as do heterosexuals; heterosexuals also do all the varied (?perverse) types of sexual intercourse that homosexuals do; and, heterosexuals do sex much more “perversely” (rape, incest, pedophiles, bondage, etc.), and more often, than homosexuals, …check the facts and statistics, then begin to bear true witness!
Truly, from an evolutionary point of view, homosexuality is exactly what this world of ours needs right now! If you haven’t been paying attention there are too many people overrunning the resources of our blessed Earth; and, where is the reverence or Godliness in that? Back when Christians were taught about ‘not lying with a man’, more than half the babies born died in the first year, if not in the first month. Propagation, propagation, propagation was just what our species needed then, and the open space and resources on the planet were abundant; not any more! And don’t worry so much, there will always still be some people who choose to be heterosexual, so we wont go extinct; or, again is it a choice, or are homosexuals and heterosexuals born that way, …the exact way God intended! Also, what dose God have happen, when a woman ‘propagates, propagates, propagates’?; …She gets more homosexuals!; Sounds like God intended it, or are you an unbeliever? Finally, about “terry’s” comments about evolution, what ever happened to creation!
WWJD? READ the RED LETTERS !!!
The people have spoken in CA.
Why would anyone go against the will of the people, unless they are anti-liberty.
Gays may have civil unions similiar to marriage but America will never undermine the Creator’s definition of marriage.
http://www.christianquest.net
screaming freedom:
i couldn’t agree more! i am proud of everyone who took a stand for what they believe in. i have a hard time believing that the mormon church, as established as they are, would not seek the proper legal advice when taking part in the PROP 8. keep digging, the truth and the good have so far prevailed.
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